• From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Topic: POS features

I noticed in the forum and the 2.1 demo that a POS system is being worked on.

However, I couldn't find where this was at on the demo.  The only link I saw was in in the setup area with a link I don't have access to click on.

Is there a place where I can see the POS system and how it will work?  I have a big need for POS and have used many POS systems in the past. I would love to give feedback and any help that I can in developing the best POS system possible for Front Accounting.

Please let me know what the vision is for the POS system and what features will be available in 2.1 for it.
Also what hardware it will work with.

Thanks,
Dave

P.S. Any idea on when 2.1 will be released?  It looks like it will have some good stuff.

  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

Hello Dave,

The core feature of POS functionality as I see it  is ability to skip all the standard sales flow steps i.e sales order, sales delivery, payment and payment allocation and replace them by one step of cash invoice sale. This core simplification is currently functional in version 2.1. Please look into Direct Invoice screen on fa2 demo site. Here you will find additional selector Cash sale/Delayed payment in invoice options. When you select Cash sale you will have simplier screen and after pressing Process button all needed database operations are done in one step.

FA admin has two additional configurations available (blocked for demouser): POS definitions and additional per user POS option. Points of Sales table stores all parameters of individual POS: related bank/cash account, inventory location and permissions for cash and/or delayed invoice issues.
In user settings you will find additional list for selecting related POS definition for this user.

For POS scanners (connected via kbd interface) we have implemented also Foreign Item Codes table which helps with selecting inventory items by EAN/UPC codes.

All those features you can test after uploading CVS code from unstable repository branch.

Currently we do not know 2.1 release time. The source is still under development, even not frozen. I think the real time would be rather in early summer than spring. But if you would like to test the development code we have established also separated branch for this in mantis bugtracker. On main mantis page page you will find some guidelines how to use it.

Best regards
Janusz

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Re: POS features

Thanks for your reply,

It sounds like you have some good things coming this summer with 2.1

Some of the critical features needed for the POS system to be valuable to retailers is the ability to integrate with their credit card processing systems and hardware.

In my opinion the credit card terminal, cash drawer and receipt printer all need to work well with the system for merchants to want to switch from their current POS systems to Front Accounting.

Bar code scanners are easy because they just work like the keyboard. But the credit card processing might be a little trickier unless you just tie into the authorize.net api and allow your system to work with card swipers that work with their system.

I think Quickbooks POS or Microsoft POS are ones that you can pattern after for features and hardware integration if you need some ideas.

WaspBarcode.com has some of the best and affordable equipment out there for POS and they have a technical support team that is easy to access by phone that could answer any questions you have related to hardware.  Their phone # is: 214-547-4100

In the future it would also be great to have some Payroll and Timetracking features in Front Accounting so we can easily manage employees and expenses there.   Timetrex.com may give you some ideas for payroll and tax stuff.

Hope this helps,

Dave

  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

Hello Dave,
Some good and some bad news as usually.
There are big chances that beta  release of 2.1 for testing purposes will be available on SF.net at the fall of January.
The bad news is that using www browser as a user interface we have nearly no access to hardware on client side. As you said barcode scanner is special case as it simply emulates keyboard interface. The other class of POS devices made available in FA 2.1 are network printers, including printers connected to client box. This requires some additional configuration of PC (the printer must be available i the net as lpr device), but it is not hard to do and all needed additional software is ready from the box both on Win and Linux . On the other hand I see no way to integrate other type of hardware like cash drawers, simply because no www browser has direct access to PC hardware nor there are standard network interfaces for this type of devices.

Payroll may be implemented in the future, but full time tracking features seems to be too complicated to locate inside FA. We want to focus on accounting functions of FA, but if we find some complementary software with open API we can consider adding connectors to integrate FA with them.

Janusz

  • From: Canada
  • Registered: 06/04/2008
  • Posts: 72

Re: POS features

Will there be an easy way to void / refund the POS transaction? Refunds for POS usually is taken directly from the Bank account / Cash account, so a normal credit note couldn't really be used...

  • alvin
  • Senior Member
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

For what it is worth I still think Openbravo POS is the best solution for this, we just need to get a little java dev done on it to work with FA, I am willing to put a few dollars toward this.

Let me know what you all think???

AM

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

When your main business is made on B2B basis and only few income is from retail clients, what is the sense to fire up OpenBravo with all its requirements? Should I buy a gun to kill a fly?

Janusz

  • alvin
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

itronics wrote:

When your main business is made on B2B basis and only few income is from retail clients, what is the sense to fire up OpenBravo with all its requirements? Should I buy a gun to kill a fly?

Janusz

Of course you are correct, but when your main business is retail you will need these features, pole displays must be lit-up, scales turned on, cash drawers opened, bar code scanners and specialty printers operated. I just don't see how you can do all this with out running a little client side code?

Any ideas?

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

Could you explain me how you want e.g. to open cash drawer from www browser?
FA is www application where the browser is on client side. The browser has no direct access to PC hardware, so even for direct use of local printer on client computer you must have the printer to be available from the net (by lpr protocol -this is implemented in 2.1). I do not know any analogical standard for such hardware like cash drawer lock controls, or pole displays. The barcode scanners use kbd interface, so there is no problem, and we can use it with FA 2.1.

But if you have something more than ideas we can consider to implement API for cooperation with specialized POS hardware. The start point is original description of underlying protocol. I cannot work with only overall imagination of how it work.

Janusz

  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

And once again -  we are focused on accounting core functionality.  If somebody knows the OpenBravo (and FA)  internals, he/her can consider development of some API connector with soap or another protocol OB supports. Its not me - no knowledge and in fact no need.

Janusz

11 Reply by p2409 (edited by p2409 02/04/2009 11:31:29 pm)

  • p2409
  • Senior Member
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  • From: Australia
  • Registered: 12/11/2008
  • Posts: 127

Re: POS features

I agree with Janusz - this is an accounting system, and aims to do that very well. Its beauty is in it's straightforward simplicity. Openbravo is very complex, however the POS module is very good, and standalone. The synchronisation code of Openbravo POS is complex, but an API is not unthinkable. You'll have much more trouble at the Openbravo POS Java end than the FrontAccoutning side of things.

Also, I would not support payroll functionality at all: it's just too differenct across companies and across the world.

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Re: POS features

The biggest thing with the POS is to get the credit card terminal integrated so that the total for the order shows up in the terminal and when the credit card is accepted or declined, it will either enter the sale or not.
Also for cash sales it is important for the change to be calculated.

As far as opening the cash drawer goes.  Most of the cash drawers out there sync up with the receipt printer. 
The receipt printers work just like a regular printer in that they can work with your browser to print a document.

Therefore, when a sale is made and a receipt is set up to print then the cash drawer opens up.

The bar code scanner also works with the browser just fine.  It just goes through the keyboard.

So in my opinion the only thing you need to worry about for POS is the credit card terminal so that we can do credit card swipe transactions easily.

It would also be nice if the receipt can be formated to print with a receipt printer that is connected to the cash drawer.

It would also be nice to see some "End of Day" or "Close Register"  modules so that we can count the cash in the register and generate reports based on the computer terminal that was used for specific sales.

  • alvin
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

Hello All

I have always said from the beginning that pos should be a module.  Joe and Janusz do a great job at keeping fa an accounting system, it is the reason I am here.  If you are a subscriber the lists then you know how hard they work at it.  My self, I would not ask them to anything else.

I have been messing with pos sense the days of Dbase,

Some time back I spoke with someone over at weberp, and he had worked on a pos before, he is the one that told me obpos would be the easiest to connect to the data base.

I did some more poking around the other day to see what was new looks like the guys over at posper are hard at again, so I grabbed a copy (https:/sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=175878) and took a look at  it, I like the ui much better then obpos, but I have no idea how to get it to read and write to fa's database, but there are others on this forum that will contribute to development cost to do this kind of thing.

Janusz, if you took a look at posper it would give you a real good idea as to what we in the retail business need in a pos, it takes about 35 meg in a folder to run.

In the mean time I will make fa do all the pos it can do...

To everyone, the best.

Alvin

PS: bruzergear, posper has payment gateways already built in.

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Re: POS features

Alvin, thanks for the link to the POSper system. We'll check it out.

I agree, that the POS system would be a great module for frontaccounting.

If anyone is wanting to develop a good POS module or a bridge to another POS that integrates nicely with Frontaccounting, then we would be willing to help contribute financially to the project.

If Front Accounting had POS and Payroll modules, then we would be happy campers.   Like I said, we would help contribute to this if others are also interested in it as well.

Thanks,
Dave

  • alvin
  • Senior Member
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

To all those who monitor this thread I have been going back and forth with Hans about POSper you may want to get in on this at https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=606132

Cheers,

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • From: China, Yunnan
  • Registered: 04/07/2009
  • Posts: 1

Re: POS features

It's an interesting discussion indeed between Alvin and Hans in https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=606132
We are running a bakery and cafe in Mainland China. For me, the main advantage of FA is that it is web-based and the database is set up in a way to support both English and Traditional Chinese. In our case, the accounting as well as the financial management and sourcing has been moved out from our shop and we find it is very convenient to work from whereever we want to. Now, recently the frequency of our customers has outgrown FA's direct sales and we are looking for a POS. POSper is indeed a very clever solution and I we would like to support
- a connector from POSper DB to FA DB
and
- a database replicator from a local POSper to a remote FA.
Maybe a few of us want to join forces to make things happen ?
Again thank you for your help we appreciate it very much.
- uhu

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Re: POS features

Let us know what help you need. We really would love to have a POS system that works seamlessly with FA

  • alvin
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

I have not had a chance to reply to this yet...

But I will help layout a plan to do this as soon as I have the time...

Just as a start we will need to come up with a data integrity plan.  You will have more then one location, and you will have more then one pos at each location, and when the power goes out and the network is down the sale must go on...

It would not be to hard to keep a local network running but the data must be synchronized with the server holding FA on a timely basis...

Janusz may have some ideas here?  I will work more on this later...

Alvin

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

Hello,

I personally don't like java, and therefore I do not know it well so I cannot help on POSper side. The lack of web API in FrontAccounting is big issue, but I do not want to waste time for implementing API which later have to be completely rewritten. If there is someone who can do the work on POS side, I am open for any discussion and cooperation.

There is a couple protocols which can be used to data exchange here. I have done some startup work to implement Hessian API services for FA. The protocol developed by Caucho (resin server authors) has many advantages, and there is at least two free implementations of java libraries which can be integrated on java POS side. I think it would be good choice for the case. But if POSper has some web API already implemented, we can also try to make some connector for using it.

Anyway there is no chance to integrate FA with any third party POS without help of some coder knowing details of this POS implementation. It's not me.

Janusz

  • alvin
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

Hey Janusz

Take a look at this, http://symmetricds.codehaus.org/ maybe it could be used for data synchronization from pos to server,etc

AM

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

Hello Alvin,

Interesting link, although this is nothing we can do about FA-POS synchronization. As far as I understand SymmetricDS have to be installed both on client and server machines, and it access MySQL database directly. Theoretically all what is needed to use it is installation and proper configuration, so anybody  interested can try e.g. to build a bridge between FA and any POS.

Anyway thanks for information -  pdf documentation explaining implementation approach is inspiring.

Janusz

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Re: POS features

I find it interesting that this post on the POS feature has over 900 views on the forum while most of the others have around 100 or so.
Obviously this tells me that this should be a big priority for the developers to think about putting in the next release.
I think the "Direct Invoice" page could easily be turned into a pos interface if it had the ability to calculate change due to cash paying customers, had a way to process credit cards through authorize.net, and could generate a receipt for the customer.
I think this would be a huge step forward for FA and it is obvious by the popularity of this thread in the wish list area that I am not alone in my desire to have this functionality.

  • Registered: 12/25/2007
  • Posts: 2,446

Re: POS features

POS  is simply wildcard term, just like ERP. To implement any new feature we have to at least know what wishers mean. Current functionality named POS (direct invoicing and point of sales definitions, also foreign codes feature) is just what is enough for me. I know it is far too little for most other people over there.

There were a couple of prepositions regarding POS beginning from full implementation inside FA, via integration of third party applications up to loose data synchronization. In fact to begin such a big task we at least have to know what FA community consider satisfactory set of features to name it POS.

Some time ago on growing demand from FA community we have established FrontAccounting wiki. Unfortunately so far the main authors are still Joe and me. Seems that  all the energy of other forum members has been exhausted on discussions how the wiki should be organized. Nevermind.

Anyway if you are really interested in POS functionality, the first step toward implementation is to write down some functional POS specification, and describe which features are necessary, which are optional or just a candy. The wiki system is ideal for such cooperation effort, and you can be the pioneer which decides about future shape of POS.
I have just switched your status to senior member, so you have write access also to Devel group of pages, so you can start to turn your wishes into reality wink.

Janusz

  • alvin
  • Senior Member
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  • From: USA, Guatemala, Honduras
  • Registered: 05/20/2008
  • Posts: 301

Re: POS features

I am with you bruzergear, see you in the wiki for a POS planing and specs...

AM

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."  - Aristotle.
  • From: USA
  • Registered: 11/21/2008
  • Posts: 44

Re: POS features

Thank you. I will organize my thoughts and ideas on this over the next few days and then start discussing them in the wiki with you all.